code4you?
Sun 13 Jul 2008, 2:58 pm
In Value in the online world, Meredith Farkas mentions the need for a conference “that sort of fits into the big space between something like Internet Librarian and something like Code4Lib.” She goes on:
We need a conference for librarians who are tech-savvy enough where most of Internet Librarian is a review, but who would feel totally over their head at a Code4Lib. There are a lot of us who fit into that category. We also need online conferences. We aren’t all in the position of being able to travel all over the country several times a year, so it makes sense to develop online alternatives. And technologies have come so far in recent years that an online conference could be developed that would be highly interactive and provide real value to attendees.
She brings this up in the context of how people assign value to free vs. paid experiences, but I’d like to just think about this idea on its own merits for a bit. In the comments, Deborah Fitchett mentions that this might be the kind of thing that the Library Society of the World might want to do.
And I suppose it might. Depending on the circumstances, I personally might want to help organize and/or attend such an online conference. I fall into that gap that Meredith describes, and I have also thought about the need for this kind of conference that would bridge the gap between using online tools and actual scripting or coding.
But before I got too excited about this kind of conference (free or not), I wanted to think about what it would take to really make it happen.
What would such a conference cover? There are plenty of tutorials and websites (online and free) that can teach one the basics of PHP or Python or Ruby on Rails or whatever. This kind of information isn’t hard to come by. I also expect it would be hard to teach enough programming in a short conference session to be worthwhile (I could, of course, be wrong about that). So instead of trying to teach programming or scripting languages, the conference might instead try to get people to think like hackers. I love Dorothea Salo’s exhortation to beat things with rocks until they work, but often it’s not clear exactly which things are most likely to respond by being beaten by which rocks. If an online class could teach us what to consider before picking up the rock, that would be worthwhile.
I think this kind of conference could also teach us how to find good problems to solve. I have picked up a few books on Perl and JavaScript and PHP over the pst few years, but have never gotten far because it wasn’t apparent what I could use them for at my library. A conference like this might make it more apparent what problems or projects are the right size for someone to cut their teeth on, and put it all in a library-specific context.
Who would teach or present at such a conference? The same people who attend and present at conferences like code4lib? Would they want to present at this kind of bridge conference? Could be.
Is an online conference really the right way to learn this kind of thing? Steven Kaye has talked to me a little bit about his ideas for face-to-face conferences that would be entirely hands-on workshops. Could an online conference even do that? I suppose Five Weeks to a Social Library was very hands-on, but a five week course isn’t exactly the same thing as an online conference.
Lastly, Meredith writes about people feeling “over their head” at code4lib. Is that bad? Might it be better if people for whom “most of Internet Librarian is a review” just went ahead and embraced the confusion at a conference aimed at systems librarians and coders? I could see a lot of good coming out of an immersive experience at a conference that was over my head: a better understanding of what the hot topics and technologies were, a notebook full of stuff to look up later, and a pocket full of business cards (or Facebook contacts or whatever) representing people I could go to later with questions.
I still think the idea of such a conference is interesting, and I’m curious to see how other people feel about some of these questions.

Scattered initial thoughts: This would likely fit very well into the BarCamp model of conferences; the organizers would just have to make VERY clear what the intended audience is.
If I were organizing it, I’d want ‘most everything to be hands-on — so either it’s held someplace where a computer lab can be reserved for the purpose, or it’s “don’t come without a laptop.” So, installfests OK, “let’s solve problem X with code” OK, “watch the pretty screens!” not OK.
Personally, I would happily teach markup at a conference like this (and I am having immense trouble resisting the session title “I Will Mark Your $#!+ Up!”). I would want to learn basic web programming; “here is your database, here is a form, here is how you connect the two without creating XSS holes et cetera” stuff.
The problem with basic Web-available tutorials, by the way, is that they are often not problem-oriented. I can’t learn from them because I need to be *working on a problem* before stuff sinks in.
Comment by Dorothea Salo — July 13, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
For me, my ideal event would be some kind of hackfest fo people who have no idea how to hack.
Something like “we are going to do the set up, installation and customisation for …. DSpace or Koha or Evergreen or Drupal (does it need much?)…. Then everyone sits down and learns about the back end underneath these products.
I *think* most of us inbetweenies understand how to tweak and customise most common tools using their dashboards, and how to use them socially. What I want to know is that underneath layer. Things like writing a Wordpress plugin.
I also want to know how to get one system talking to another. Pulling out and repurposing data to bend to my will.
My ideal event would be a whole mob of us sitting in a room, lots of chocolate on hand. At the start of the day, mentors who knew stuff would describe the project they were discussing, then go off in bunches and work through it with help from mentors
Or course, Dorothea would be showing us DSpace, John Blyberg how the underbelly of OpenSocial works, Karen Schneider Evergreen, Nicle Engard Koha and Casey Bisson the ins and outs of Wordpress. Plus more…
Being in Australia, I’m not likely to get to be in the room – and doing it remotely wouldn’t work. I’d want to be in a room with people to listen to the questions others were asking and find ways to use the tools that I hadn’t even thought of.
Comment by Kathryn Greenhill — July 13, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
So yeah, you pretty much wrote the post I was considering.
What I might add:
In thinking about this, I’m not at all sure that a conference of any kind is the way to go, although Dorothea and Kathryn have almost convinced me it might work. What I mostly want is a) a project, so I have a specific problem to solve and b) someone who’s willing to answer dumb questions. That’s more or less how I got our library website built. I knew what I wanted, I hit some things with rocks until I broke them, and then I consulted the LSW to get some help whacking things back into place.
It’s hard to know how to fit that sort of thing into anybody’s job, though. “Hi, I’d like to spend several mornings a week hitting things with rocks, and several other hours a week helping people apply the right rocks in the right way.”
I think we all actually need to go to camp for a few weeks.
Comment by laura — July 13, 2008 @ 10:08 pm
A month ago, I attended an “untraining” in which we all worked on problems & projects in using OpenOffice.org (see the event wiki for details). I realize that we’re talking about online training here, but I really want to give a thumbs up to the “untraining” approach we used in our face-to-face event. Like an unconference, we polled who was in the room at the start. Then, with wthe assistance of Michelle Murrain, our trainer & moderator for the day, we came up with a list of discussion topics, some of which revolved around using the software to tackle a specific task or project. A group I was in worked with the database software from OpenOffice.org to create a tool that would allow you to create faculty member profiles that would assist you as you did collection development. We fooled around with different setups for the database and all learned a lot about what can and, more importantly, what can’t be done. It was a blast working on a team like this to collectively build a tool that would have real-world uses.
Comment by Stephen Francoeur — July 14, 2008 @ 8:03 am
Thanks, all for the great comments. It’s interesting that what you all have described seem somewhat dependent on face-to-face interaction. Or am I misreading that?
I agree about needing a project to actually learn anything. I have a hard time getting excited about the fake project offered by books or online tutorials.
Laura, I guess I would hope that a conference would accelerate the process that you describe, getting a lot of stuff broken and fixed in the span of a few hours (which seems to be what Stephen is describing) and making the contacts needed to get help later on.
Comment by Steve Lawson — July 14, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
A little side comment: These ideas of a problem-centered unconference are very appealing from the perspective of a new librarian / recent grad. After library school, I’ve felt that while I know about a lot of things, there’s not a whole lot I can actually do. I agree that there is no substitute for in-person interaction, but the online format would be great for those who are not able to do much traveling.
Comment by Megan — July 15, 2008 @ 5:20 am
We’re already doing this in Los Angeles as we recognized the same problem.
See
techbootcamp.pbwiki.com
We’re meeting on Sunday, actually, to plan a Drupal install-fest
Comment by Laura Smart — August 8, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
I forgot to add the practical project driving the need to learn Drupal — a bunch of us are interested in the plug-in for making a 2.0 interface to Innovative’s Millenium OPAC
Comment by Laura Smart — August 8, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Thanks, Laura. That looks very cool.
Comment by Steve Lawson — August 8, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
I’ve got three disconnected comments to make:
As somebody who’s not an “in-betweenie” for quite a few types of technology (and a total noob for some others), I would definitely be willing to present at an event like this. Who wouldn’t like to talk to a bunch of smart, motivated people?
Like Dorothea, I absolutely need to have a problem to solve before I can learn something effectively. But I think that I’m not too bad at coming up with problems that I might try to solve for many kinds of technology (boy, do I have problems).
Finally, I think that we are talking about in-person events a lot because group things still don’t work well virtually, in my experience. At least, group events that require more complex interaction that this group trying to kill that group and steal their gold.
Comment by David Fiander — August 11, 2008 @ 10:17 am
Yes and no, David. It can be done — I think 5Weeks proves that — but with caveats.
Caveat one: It’s hard to build long-term community out of a group of people who meet online for a specific limited-term purpose. That’s okay, though, if training and group problem-solving are all we want to bite off for the time being.
Caveat two: It’s hard, period. Instructional design matters. Doing it online means a good deal more planning and work than a BarCamp event.
Caveat three: Synchronous interaction is a sine qua non, and the richer the better. Webinars still don’t come cheap, much less free.
Nothing insuperable there, of course, but if we’re gonna do this, let’s really make it work!
Comment by Dorothea Salo — August 11, 2008 @ 11:40 am
I thought that I had commented on this, but Dorothea’s recent post brought me back, and it turned out I hadn’t.
We (myself and others associated with BIGWIG) proposed nearly exactly this sort of experience to LITA, and got as far as the proposal stage. It was misunderstood and shot down by the board, who modified it into something completely different. We worked up a very solid proposal, showed why it was needed, who it would serve, etc…
That was 2 years ago. LITA _still_ hasn’t gotten anything off the ground, and what is coming isn’t anything like our idea.
I guess what I’m saying is: if anything like this comes about, count me in.
Comment by Jason Griffey — August 12, 2008 @ 8:34 pm
Dorothea (or anyone, really): What do you think of GoToMeeting as a webinar solution? I know people in AIIP like it a lot, you can have up to 15 attendees in a given meeting, and a monthly plan is available (so presumably you could pay the $49 for a month and be done).
Comment by Steven Kaye — August 12, 2008 @ 9:38 pm
Speaking only for myself, I know I learn better in a face-to-face environment although I would be willing to give a webinar a try. I’ve got access to all the books I can carry on these topics and have I ever sat down and tried to muddle through them on my own? Nooo. I like the idea of barcamp, but it sounds like there’s mostly learners and not so many teachers, so I’m not sure that’s quite the right model. I would SOOOO love for LITA to figure out how to make this kind of thing happen, but I can’t see how it fits into the very structured ALA programming process.
Comment by Jenny Reiswig — August 12, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
(Sorry for the double post – I sure come off as a Little Ray of Gloom there, huh!)
Comment by Jenny Reiswig — August 12, 2008 @ 11:30 pm
Well, part of the point of BarCamp is that learners and teachers are often the very same people… and us “middle-grounders” exemplify that experience if anyone does. I can teach some markup, heck yeah. I can’t be teaching PHP.
Also, learners learn from learners, not just teachers. That was ALL OVER 5Weeks, and I’ve found it so in other environments as well. That you don’t learn from books (I don’t either; they’re great for reference and helping me over humps, not so great for starting from square one) doesn’t IMO mean much about how you’d do in a BarCamp environment.
Steven, GoToMeeting looks pretty good, though we’d probably want the paid variant, as 15 is a very small number. But $99 isn’t a big hurdle!
Jason, I am so very very not surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised. However… consider that AALL is doing a 5Weeks variant for its membership (spearheaded by a colleague at MPOW), and keep your chin up!
Comment by Dorothea Salo — August 13, 2008 @ 6:52 am
The BarCamp model works well, having just come back from BarCampOhio, though mostly I see these as having more of a local/regional draw than the more structured conferences.
Would a half- or full-day addition to a more structured conference with heavy attendance work for enough of us?
There are several conference options where I think something like this could work. Just to name a few, CiL, IL, Code4Lib, LITA Forum, maybe ACRL National, ALA Annual (prolly not Mw, tho)
I’m on the 2009 ballot for LITA Board, so hopefully I’ll be able to keep a repeat of @Griffey’s BIGWIG experience from happening again to anyone.
PS Jason, let’s go windmill-tilting with that pre-modified project – I’m game to try to get it on the 2009 Annual and/or Forum program (even though (especially since) it’s “too late”) :)
Comment by Aaron the Librarian — August 13, 2008 @ 7:43 am
Interesting discussion. I’m wondering how many people involved in this thread have actually been to code4lib.
Comment by Ed Summers — August 13, 2008 @ 8:45 am
Thanks for the new infusion of comments and ideas–many, I expect, prompted by Dorothea’s links here from her post Finding tech training’s middle ground. There has also been some talk about these ideas in other places recently, so perhaps we can get something off the ground in the next 12 months.
I don’t think every new comment needs a response from me, so I’ll just say two things: I find it touching that people are trying to get ALA to go this way, and I’ll gladly shake your hand when you succeed. And, Ed, I’m guessing you are the only one here who has attended code4lib, so if you’d like to share some experiences with us, that would be great.
Comment by Steve Lawson — August 13, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
Perhaps a workshop at a venue like CiL or IL where experts in certain areas give overviews of what a given technology does. An “if you want to do this then you need to use x” approach. The speakers would exposed themselves as the experts they are and the attendees would then have people they can contact with questions.
I agree that it would be tough at a conference to be able to impart enough that people would walk away with the skills they need, but I think a lot of people are unsure what skills they need. This would give them a chance to match a problem with a solution.
That said, I did attend an all day workshop in PHP that was quite helpful.
Comment by Tom — August 13, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
I know that at the end of the Social Software Showcase, there was some talk in the room about doing the showcase as an all-day social software-fest, perhaps with presenters in shifts, so that people could come and go as needs/desires dictate. Something like that, attached to a larger conference, might be a workable idea. Combining the all-day Social Software Showcase with Tom’s idea for a more technically minded program might be an excellent “all-day-workshop” at something like IL or CIL…
Comment by Robin Hastings — August 13, 2008 @ 6:21 pm
Web Services for Libraries…
…
Trackback by The Corporate Librarian — October 20, 2008 @ 2:43 am